Saturday, April 7, 2012

M/M Spankings: A Heterosexual Man's View

(M/M school spanking role-play. Picture courtesy of Sting Pictures.)

I have written about my F/F spanking play experiences as a heterosexual woman and about the appeal that M/M spanking scenes have for me. There are many posts written by heterosexual men on their liking of F/F scenes and there are blogs written by male gays which feature lots of M/M spanking content. But I haven't come across any posts written by heterosexual men about M/M spanking, yet.

There are heterosexual men out there who enjoy watching M/M clips, though. Ludwig, for example, once had a subscription to Spanking Central because he was curious and, even though M/M isn't his most favourite constellation, he enjoyed the effort which they put into their videos. Some heterosexual men even go one step further and participate in M/M spanking play. I haven't read anything about their experiences though.

For obvious reasons I can't write a post about M/M spanking scenes from the view of a heterosexual male. But for me this is a very intriguing topic, so I decided to ask a heterosexual man who has made experiences with M/M play instead. Our regular readers know him as an avid commenter on this blog – please welcome Donpascual! Donpascual was so kind to answer my questions about his view on M/M spanking play and his personal experiences. I think he has very fascinating tales to tell. Please enjoy.

Donpascual, a warm welcome and thank you very much for having taken the time to share your experiences! Could you please tell our readers a few words about yourself?

Being an Oldie now, I have been nurturing a life long spanking passion: It started out with collecting magazines and books. Later, I found a few terrible 8mm films without sound and copies of copies of VHS rip offs (Soho took a lot of my money over the years). Then digital DVDs became available, and finally downloads of all kinds of kinky stuff followed. Collecting spankobilia certainly was a nice hobby, but far more important: I was lucky enough to find a lovely wife as a spanking partner and tolerant accomplice regarding my activities as a top. I have been a witness to the whole development of the spanko scene. At the end, I also participated in spanking events and even organized some of them myself on behalf of "SpankingFreunde". Getting interviewed by a well known Blogger now, adds a finishing touch to an interesting spanker's career.

That sounds like a very exciting life spiced up with lots of spanking fun. And thank you for that lovely compliment, it is my pleasure that you are willing to share your story here on our blog! Now, the main reason why I asked you for an interview is the fact that you, being a heterosexual man, have made experiences with M/M play. What was the background of your first M/M scene?

The setting or scenario, where this happened for the first time, was a weekend of boarding school play with both genders as submissives. We had some tops as teachers, and I was supposed to play the headmaster. Whoever misbehaved – always deliberately of course - could have gotten away with corner time or a few swats on a fully covered bottom in the class room. At the teacher's discretion, however, it could also mean a trip to the headmaster's study carrying a punishment slip.

There, the culprit would receive a distinctly harsher treatment: the belt or cane given on the bare bottom. As a rule it was a one to one affair, and not much humiliation to endure. The "girls" had no problems with this, nor did I. But since we had a mixed class, the "boys" were liable to get the same treatment when really displeasing the teacher.

Thus I was confronted – fully virginal and unprepared for an encounter with a man – with two "boys" sent for punishment. Both "boys" were experienced bottoms, one of them a wiry sporty type wearing an old fashioned tight Lederhose (leather shorts), which I remembered from my own childhood, seventy years ago, when I had worn such a very practical garment myself. The other one was a lovely transvestite, a rather charming young lady in a perfectly fitting original English school uniform.

How did your first M/M scene unfold and what were your feelings at the time?

I simply had no plan how to handle the situation. You might speculate – at least as a possibility – that I could not force myself to touch a man on such short notice. You would be wrong. Since the rules for playing had been agreed upon beforehand, everyone knew what to expect. I was the top and they had accepted their roles as bottoms. Why should I find it difficult, strange, abhorrent, perverse, or distasteful to spank a male bottom? After all, a bottom is a bottom! Or is it?

With the chronological order of punishments I was lucky. The first six of the best I delivered on the leather pants stretched to bursting point. OK, right, I played for time until cornered and forced to go all the way for a bared bottom. But mind you, I remembered very well from my days as an eight years old - were the stick in school was as normal as nose bleeding in a fight - the fear of the intense sting of a cane thrashing down on a drum-tight leather bottom compressing the cheeks underneath without option to escape. It hurts!

This first caning of a grown man therefore was very much more a trip down memory lane, not at all a question of "should I dare?", "Can I do it?", "Will he resent it?" I had a task at hand and was jolly well going to make it sting! And I knew, it would sting! A lot!

In the back of my head, I also knew that this was role playing, and everybody was participating quite voluntarily. He had been bidding his time for the whole first day, cautiously "testing the waters" until he finally summoned his courage on the second day, and decided to go for the jackpot, so to speak.

So he had to stretch over the low horse, bottom well presented and I made him count out six pretty hard stingers. Of course he got a telling off beforehand. This always was the hardest part for me: Telling off a culprit in a role play can be quite a strain on the face muscles.

This first caning, I do not remember very well; the second and third all the better. For the second caning, I simply increased the number of strokes; and I made sure, he felt them. But the whole thing developed to a sort of a contest. When he turned up for the third time, I had no choice. Following a few scathing remarks about his constant lack of appropriate behaviour, a told him to lower his pants. Down they came as a matter of fact and there he stood - naked. I did not expect that, but I should have (as boys we loved to wear the leather on bare skin).

His bottom was very lean and muscular, not at all displeasing or unattractive. I caned him two dozen times and heard some moaning for the first time. Interesting that I was keen on getting some noticeable reward for my ministrations, instead of pondering about the altogether incredible situation, or refusing to go all the way including baring his butt.

Well, this scene was unusual, in a way, because he was a homosexual in an M/M relationship. For him, it was quite normal to bare his bottom to another man; for me, it was absolutely new territory. Nevertheless, I did not judge it quite as exotic as it most probably was – as seen from the outside.

Were you involved in another M/M scenario on that weekend?

Indeed I was. Later that afternoon, our transvestite schoolgirl paid me a visit. "She" was a carefully groomed young man of middle height with a slim but not particularly athletic body. When I first met him/her, he was discussing sports cars at the bar! There was absolutely no telling that he might climb into women’s clothes within the hour.

"She" later told me that "she" was used to be spanked quite severely by male friends but did not have or want sex with them. With "her" I felt quite comfortable. Evidently, the old M/F pattern took over, particularly when baring "her" cleanly shaven, very womanly bottom. I almost took it easy on "her" as I did with the other "girls". But "she" told me not to hold back and "she" departed with a nice set of welts.

In a way, your first M/M experiences happened a bit unexpectedly in a situation where you had to muster determination not to back out of what was confronting you. Did you ever participate voluntarily in another M/M scene again later?

In fact I did on a few more occasions, however, without much enthusiasm. Probably, I would spank men again, depending on the right occasion and an agreeable mutual chemistry with an attractive bottom. Most likely, my ideal male bottom would have to be a friend, not a total stranger. Altogether, I might accept all kinds of partners except the typical middle aged pain addict and femdom victim. That has something to do with aesthetic limits on my side.

Complete nudity is not really necessary either, as you have stated [in the post about M/M play from a woman's point of view]. It is absolutely possible to think of a tableau with two completely dressed men as nevertheless electrifying. But – as a rule – I would want to bare his bottom depending on the script.

I certainly do not get any sexual gratification out of spanking men, but I also do not resent them as bottoms. My role topping a male bottom is most likely that of the classical helper, fulfilling the bottom's fantasies. That discussion about who is in the end topping whom is age old, of course. No need to go into that now.

Have you ever watched an M/M spanking clip?

I have been looking at a lot of M/M websites and downloaded many videos. Nearly all of them are involving gay bottoms and tops, particularly the ones involving twinks. It is a shame, that especially these young men with rather attractive bodies and well formed bottoms are mostly gay. The plainly sexual mood is not what I would want to get involved in.

As you have put it, we both like the purely punitive nonsexual M/M play which is so dam difficult to find. And you are right, mixed gender group play with several participants is not available on a video.

But once, I have participated in a wild weekend party, where the men got spanked by several tops, male and female. That was also the only occasion, where I have switched. And that is another lesson to be learned: public play follows chaotic rules and you never know whether you find yourself in quite unexpected situations. Simply relax, have fun, and enjoy!

That already sounds like a good conclusion for this interview! If you had to offer a short additional conclusive statement on your view on M/M play, though, what would that be?

If the top is not gay, a man as bottom cannot offer much in terms of excitement. But it can be entertaining spanking another man, nevertheless. The fun factor may be discovered in creative role playing. In mixed company, I would participate in a "free for all" any time, as I once did with a group of friends.

Thank you very much for having taken the time for this interview, Donpascual! I have to say that your point of view on M/M spankings reminds me very much of my own feelings towards F/F play.

Dear readers, I hope you enjoyed this interview. Please feel free to post remarks, questions or your own tales and experiences in the comment section. Donpascual also asked my to publish his e-mail address, in case someone wants to ask a question but is too shy to do so publicly. You can contact Donpascual at donpascual ~at~ aol ~dot~ com.


Spankedhortic II said...

Thanks very much for doing that interview, it was most informative.

I have to admit that I have some bad knee jerk reactions, when it comes to participating in M/m play. I think I could happily participate in an M/m, play only situation but other factors make me think twice about this.

I did see a little free bee clip on the "Spanking 360" blog, from Audrey knight, where I felt comfortable and actually enjoyed watching an M/m spanking. I think that the element in this clip that made me more excepting of it, was that there was a female present, not spanking or being spanked but just there.

I'm not totally sure why I felt better about this (a professional psychologist might be useful to work that out) but I am leaning towards the "Female chaperone" character being the theoretical, deciding element in that situation.

At the end of the day I think that the only way to get over my produces is to bite the bullet and play M/m, in a non sexual scenario. This does present another problem, how to find an appropriate play mate or mates?


Simon said...

I am a heterosexual man who has had an interest in spanking for a very long time. Initially my interest was in men punishing women but in my twenties I realised that I was intrigued by the idea of a woman punishing me. For years I switched between receiving and giving punishment. Then over ten years ago I meet my current Mistress and since then my experiences have been exclusively on the receiving end. Initially our sessions involved only basic cp scenarios but as our relationship developed we have experimented with other types of submission. Under her tutelage I have endured (for want of a better word) experiences which I had never even imagined when I started out.Until recently however these had all involved only women and myself. When she proposed to have another man punish me in front of her I was to say the least dubious but decided to try it if only to please her. So it was that I found myself with a bare bottom over another man's lap being spanked and paddled. Shortly afterwards he gave me a short but very effective caning whilst I was bent over and naked, whilst my Mistress watched. I can't say that I enjoyed the experience and my Mistress obviously realised this as she hasn't repeated the experiment. However I don't view this as a gay experience but simply another variation on the spanking/cp games that I indulge in. I don't enjoy M/M pictures or videos but appreciate that there are people out there who are not gay who do.

Spankedhortic II said...

Sorry I meant "prejudices" not "produces".


oldtawser said...

Judging from so many new names, quite a few readers are "delurking" - so here goes!

As an absolutely straight kinky male (sorry, that sounds like an oxymoron) who is not the slightest bit gay, I have had only one M/M spanking experience. It occurred in the following fairly classic scenario, involving two boarding schools - one girls', one boys'.

The action takes place in the girls' school, where a final year prefect has smuggled in her boyfriend, who is a prefect at the boys' school. They are having an exciting time in the girl's bed when the headmistress, known for her night-time snooping rounds (all dormitories and rooms are fitted with reversed door viewers, so that it is possible to see into the rooms rather than out of them) spots what is going on, and watches for a while, becoming both angry and in a strange way excited.

She then opens the door with her master key and confronts the young couple, who are absolutely horrified at being caught out. The headmistress rages at them, explaining that they should really be expelled immediately, but that, if the boy's headmaster agrees, perhaps they can both undergo corporal punishment instead. She goes off to phone the headmaster, telling them to be neatly dressed in their respective uniforms by the time she returns.

When she does return, she brings with her a well-worn, medium weight, Glasgow pattern 3-tail tawse and a crook-handle rattan senior cane. She informs the miscreants that the headmaster is on his way from his school and that although he is none too happy about being dragged out so late at night, he has agreed that the appropriate punitive measure is corporal punishment, not expulsion. She says that she will commence the punishment and that initially each will receive six strokes on the hands with her tawse, with additional strokes should either of them pull their hands away without permission. She starts with the young man, giving him three full-strength strokes on each hand, with his girlfriend watching in horror. It is then her turn, and she nervously holds out her crossed hands. The headmistress brings the strap down full strength and the pain is such that the girl involuntarily sticks her hands between her legs for comfort, thereby earning an extra two vicious strokes.

Briefly, the next scenes are:-

Headmaster (that's me!) arrives, asks for an explanation, then after some discussion with headmistress agrees that the male and female should spank each other over their underclothes. They are ordered to strip to that degree and each then has to give the other twelve strokes on the buttocks with the cane and twelve with the tawse. That done, headmaster and headmistress agree that the punishment was too gentle and more is required. The headmaster then produces a heavy Lochgelly tawse (2-tail) from under his jacket (tawse carried over the shoulder in classic Scottish manner) then gives each "pupil" twelve strokes on crossed hands. He then orders them to bare their bottoms for a severe caning, which he deftly administers, each pupil having to watch the other being thrashed (24 strokes each). (There's a bit more, but I won't bore you with the details).

Although I initially had severe misgivings about a M/M spanking scene, I found in practice that I had no problem with that particular one at all; mainly, I think, because there were two females present, one of whom was my normal spanking partner. Also, the "pupils" were in real life a young married couple, with spanking an established part of their relationship. I therefore felt the whole thing to be, I suppose, a form of heterosexual adventure. I am not sure I could do a one-to-one M/M spanking scene involving a bare bottom, although M/M tawsing of hands is different and somehow without the same sexual connotations.

Saddlesore82 said...

Regarding a heterosexual man's view of M/M spankings, comments by others certainly strike a chord with me. Although I can find watching a M/M spanking quite erotic on occasion, it needs to somehow seem "not gay" and therefore needs to be free from any gay sex action, even if those involved are in fact gay. If I am participating in the scene, the presence of a female, be she straight, lesbian or bisexual, either in the scene, or even behind the camera, somehow makes all the difference in removing the potentially "purely gay" aspect of a M/M spanking scene and I can cope with it, or even enjoy it to a certain extent.

Changing the subject a little (not much as these instruments are quite popular in M/M spanking scenes), we have heard quite a few mentions of tawses and tawsing in your blog recently. Although the blog title relates specifically to canes, I suspect quite a few readers are interested in other implements, especially tawses/straps/belts. Looking on the internet, there is plenty of information about canes and caning, but not nearly so much about tawses and tawsing. Such advice as there is often seems incoherent and not very authentic, coming from young kinksters who cannot have the fully authentic experience from years back when the art of effective tawsing was practised daily in schools (sorry Pandora et al!). Indeed, with a few exceptions, many tawsing video scenes look pretty non-authentic also, reflecting, I think, a lack of knowledge on the part of those involved.

Remember that in the past, teachers (in loco parentis) were actually trained (officially or otherwise) at teacher training colleges in the art of inflicting punishment using the tawse. They had regular practice sessions and exchanged hints and tips on technique, maximizing pain while minimizing injury, and so on. Now although most of those people will have died, there must still be a few out there who have all that old wisdom and it would be nice if it could be recorded for posterity instead of the art of authentic tawsing being lost forever. I notice a few contributors (e.g. oldtawser, doclash and an anonymous contributor from a while ago) seem to have rather specialised knowledge on the subject. Have any of them ever thought of writing it all down for following generations? Some of us would sure appreciate it!

Donpascual said...

@Spankedhortic II
You are feeling uneasy about M/M play because of the potential gay element. But you admit that you would play, provided there will be no homoerotic actions. Exactly my position!
The wish for the presence of a female chaperone is a surprising aspect, though.

As a favour for your mistress you tried M/M and found out that there is no excitement in it. Compliment to your mistress that she recognized and – more important – respected it.
Yours is the first comment of a bottom. That is an angle, Kaelah and I have not even discussed. Until now, I have not touched a bare male bottom. Perhaps, Kaelah will ask for a more detailed comment from you as a bottom and other readers.
I am somewhat doubtful whether I would take another (nude) man over my lap. Evidently I have yet to find my limit. My first question would be: how does another heterosexual man’s hand feel on your bare bottom??


Thank you very much for your detailed description of your boarding school experience as M/M Headmaster. I am envious. Obviously, that was much more elaborate than our weekend plays and possibly also provided a lot more excitement. For example, we did not sleep under one roof, and consequently there was no “night action” which could be the “salt in the soup”.
Similar to my experience, there was some distance between you and your male bottom by using implements. Probably, your positive conclusion was founded on this detachment. Reading all comments, I started to ask myself exactly that question: would I spank a man lying over my lap on the bare with my hand?

@all M/M bottoms and Kaelah

To sum up what most of you wrote: The role of a female chaperone in M/M play seems to be very important to all of you. However, for eliminating what exactly: Embarrassment or protection against being drawn into a homoerotic situation?

I guess both of us, Kaelah and I would be interested in learning more about that angle. But there are more questions: What is the feeling of a male bottom placing his naked behind over another man’s knees? Did you talk to your male top about his thoughts when making skin contact with your bare butt? That must be a rather sensitive situation between heterosexual men.
And here, Kaelah could add her experience with spanking women in F/F play. I wonder
whether the physical contact is problematic as in M/M play. Certainly, there are no male chaperones necessary.
One final issue in that context: I assume that being pulled over a man’s lap with underpants down, is a fairly erotic experience – even between heterosexual men . Your imagination will fill in the details. Should we discuss that, too?

Your idea about collecting experiences with implements which are nearly out of mode, meets with an idea Kaelah has already on the shelf. As far as I know she wants to do a post about implement preferences. However, you comment is extending that idea quite a bit.
Just discussing preferred implements is one thing. Collecting knowledge about their correct/professional use goes beyond that.

Considering my own life – now I am well in my seventies – I probably have a few valuable memories which will be lost, eventually. What is worse, we don’t even know whether that what we forget will be unique and worth conserving. Come to think of it, the often threatened wipe out of all our digital memories is no empty threat. We could lose our physical memories much faster.

Simon said...

My Mistress and I didn't discuss me being spanked by a man before it happened, she just brought him into the room and told me I was going to be punished by him. Neither did we speak to each other he just ordered me to bare my bottom and bend over his lap. My Mistress by now knows that I am willing to experiment but I think this was something of a test. If there had been any discussion beforehand I think I would have said no but this way I wasn't given the chance. Like most women I have been spanked by he ran his hand over my backside before starting and I did find this most disconcerting. The actual spanking and subsequent punishments were probably less severe than those handed out by my Mistress although this was probably due to him being unsure of my limits. During the punishment I was worried that I might become aroused and what this would mean. As it was this did not happen and the whole episode became just another example of my desire to please my Mistress. I think it was important that she was observing both for me and him and I certainly wouldn't have done it otherwise. Since I didn't get the chance to speak to him afterwards I don't know whether he regularly spanks men and if he enjoyed it.In truth I am not entirely unhappy to have tried it once but will not worry if it never arises again.

Kaelah said...

@ Spankedhortic:
Prefectdt, I don't think that you are prejudiced at all. In my opinion it is perfectly okay to have personal preferences and limits. You are a straight man, so it does make perfect sense that M/M doesn't do much for you and that the idea of participating in a spanking scene with a man (especially in the vulnerable position of a bottom) causes you a strange gut feeling.

You aren't a guy who runs away in horror when stumbling across any M/M material, though, or claims that M/M is wrong somehow. You even took the time to look at different M/M stuff and found out that it can even work for you in case a woman is present in the scene (I love the idea of an M/M scene that is embedded in a mixed gender scenario!).

So, I don't think there is any need for you to participate in an M/M scene just to overcome any prejudices. If you are curious about M/M and one day meet a male fellow kinkster whom you feel comfortable enough with to try it out (I think that is an important precondition!) and maybe a fitting female witness as well, that's of course great. I don't think there is any need to push things, though. :-)

@ Simon:
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience! I think it is very open-minded of you to have tried out M/M as a favour for your Mistress. In my opinion, it is also absolutely okay that you didn't do it again after having found out that it is not for you.

Donpascual already raised the topic of topping vs bottoming. Being a switch, I have done both with female friends, and I have to say that I find topping generally easier than bottoming in a casual situation, because I feel like I'm less vulnerable and more in control. With trusted women (and men), bottoming is okay for me as well, though. But I definitely couldn't do it on short notice with someone I have never met before. I assume that you trusted your unknown spanker, though, because you trusted your Mistress who had chosen him and was also looking after you during the spanking?

@ oldtawser:
Yes, there have been quite a few delurkers in the recent weeks, which I think is wonderful! Welcome, and thank you very much for sharing your story. :-) The scene you played out sounds very elaborate and intriguing! As I already mentioned earlier, the idea of an M/M scene being embedded in a mixed gender scenario has a huge appeal for me, and it is interesting to see that many men, even those who aren't into M/M per se, seem to be fine with mixed gender scenes like that.

My F/F scenes never felt (homo)sexual to me, either. Actually, none of the scenes that I do with anyone else than Ludwig feel sexual to me, anyway. I am very monogamous, and the scenes that I do with friends are more about friendship or role-play. While the storylines and the fantasy of spanking or being spanked might have an erotic thrill, the scenes that I prefer to play out with anyone but Ludwig are rather formal and there isn't any direct sexual tension between the participants at the time of play. I already wrote about that in my post about F/F play.

I can absolutely relate to your experience that your scene felt like a heterosexual adventure since there were heterosexual couples involved and it was a mixed gender scene. The idea of co-topping or co-bottoming with my mate Ludwig definitely has a big appeal for me.

Kaelah said...

@ Saddlesore82:
Welcome to you as well, and thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject! I think it is quite common that an M/M scene that involves homoerotic vanilla sex activities isn't appealing to many heterosexual men. For me as a woman, watching sex between gays isn't so much of a problem, as a matter of fact I can watch M/M, F/F, and mixed gender sex scenes alike. Ludwig always grins because we sometimes visit a sex shop that has many male gays as customers. Consequently, they often show M/M sex scenes on a video screen, and I usually end up standing in front of it, watching the action with interest. I have to admit that it doesn't do so much for me in terms of erotic thrill, though, but then I don't watch much mixed gender (or F/F) vanilla porn, either.

I am not so keen on the mixture of formal spanking scenes and sex, though. That's why I, as Donpascual already mentioned, prefer M/M scenes without vanilla sex, too. It's the same for me with F/F or mixed gender scenes, though (I don't even, for example, like the “headmaster” to touch the “schoolgirl's” bottom during a caning), the exception being explicitly erotic scenes between couples.

Ludwig and I indeed don't play much with tawses and don't have any knowledge about the historically correct use of them. I have to admit that I am not such a freak for historical accuracy, anyway, maybe because I am not so interested in historical scenarios per se (I often find the historical female roles utterly boring). But I can't believe that there aren't any documents about the historical use of, for example, tawses available. Maybe some readers can recommend books or other sources?

Kaelah said...

@ Donpascual:
For me, there is definitely a difference between a spanking with implements and a handspanking, as well as between a spanking in a position without direct body contact and an OTK spanking. I don't think that there is a huge difference for me personally, though, between F/F and mixed gender play. Since I'm very monogamous and don't want to experience any spanking that involves a direct sexual tension between the participants with anyone else than Ludwig, the question of which level of physical closeness is still okay occurs for me in every play situation with friends.

Maybe it is even easier with female friends (as I already wrote in my post about F/F play) because I somehow feel that I don't have to think so much about the possibility of giving false erotic signals since my female friends know that I am straight. As I already wrote in my reply to Simon, it is definitely easier for me to top in a casual situation than to bottom for others. Topping means that I am in control and less vulnerable. And I only play out formal scenarios that don't include any erotic hints. I have to admit that extensive rubbing of the bottom, for example, would be too much for me, as a top as well as a bottom.

It turned out that handspanking and OTK is absolutely fine for me, as a top, though. I tried it with Pandora for Dreams Of Spanking, and it actually felt great. The feeling that I had was a feeling of friendship and of being trusted by Pandora, which was wonderful. Some time later, I bottomed for her and Jane at the SM Circus in a scene that also involved a handspanking on the bare bottom (even though I wore a thong because I don't do frontal nudity on video), and it turned out that I was absolutely fine with that, too. I liked and trusted the two of them and it all just felt like good fun between friends. In both situations the idea of having “inappropriate” sexual feelings or reactions never occurred to me.

So, while the level of nudity and physical closeness definitely makes a difference, at least theoretically, it didn't turn out to be in any way problematic during the practical F/F experiences that I made. From what others have written in this thread, this doesn't seem to be an uncommon experience. It seems that we often worry much more about whether a spanking scene with fellow kinksters of the same sex could be too intimate beforehand. As long as the scenario is a rather formal one, that doesn't seem to be a big issue when it comes to the real thing, though.

Fenris said...

Could it be possible that females are a bit more relaxed when it comes to body contact with their own gender?
I have seen many vanilla girls giving each other a smack on the bottom just for fun, while this is, at least in my experience, quite unusual among (straight) men.
Personally, doing OTK with another men, as top or bottom, as well as touching a male bottom with my hand is a hard limit, silly as it may sound. Doing a formal scene with implements, maybe with another female co-bottom might be something I could enjoy. Somehow, flogging on the back seems easier, maybe because the back is seen as less erotic compared to the bottom.
Strange, I know...

Peter8862 said...

Here's a conundrum for you : the only circumstance in which I would consider caning another man would be if he were wearing just a pair of shiny running shorts and was strapped to a bench. Why, I wonder ? I think I'll stick to M and f. Sorry Kaelah.

Donpascual said...

thank you very much, Simon, for catching the ball and carrying the discussion a bit deeper.
Talking about the openly erotic aspect of going over another man's lap was the point where I began to ponder my own limits.
Kaelah mentioned this problem of body contact, too.
Touching the bare skin of a bottom, male or female, seems to be less of a problem when smacking it than when rubbing it.
Furthermore, in M/M play, the bottom's penis necessarily has to be wedged in somewhere, most likely against the top's leg.
So, I have a lot of respect for your courage to endure this situation, Simon. It had necessarily been a sexually stimulating situation.
Here, the gender gap between M/M and F/F play becomes quite wide.
For myself, I will most probably be able to top a bottom over my lap, if this strongly erotic situation is recognised beforehand and is accepted as part of a role play. However, it's crossing a line which most heterosexual men don't want to cross. Avoiding body contact will probably allow hand spanking without touching that limit.

Donpascual said...

I agree with you. Women have a much more relaxed attitude to making contact with their own gender's bodies.
Have you ever seen a man crying on another man's shoulder?
Similarly, in volleyball, bottom slapping seems to be the second most important part of the game.
It does not surprise me, that Kaleah seems to be quite at ease to spank another woman.

Donpascual said...

I think we have - with some impressive help - found the basic difference.
Contact with a skimpily clothed or totally nude body - even in non-kinky situations - obviously is much more acceptable for women than for men.
If we accept this as true, the present thread explains nicely the problems with M/M play: women touch each other, real men (which means straight men)will shy away from any action that could end as an erotic adventure; these men are hard, don't cry, and do not hand spank each other OTK :-)).
Looks to me as if we are skirting around a few silly taboos!!

Peter8862 said...

Just to round off this discussion, my insistence on shorts and use of a bench (as opposed to OTK)in any M/M cp situation only emphasises the general distaste for physical contact between heterosexual men. QED

Kaelah said...

@ Fenris:
I guess you are right with your observation that women are a bit more relaxed when it comes to physical contact with their own gender than men. And I don't think that it is strange that a back whipping seems easier for you! The back is a much less intimate part of the human body, so a back whipping would be easier for me as well, especially when bottoming to someone whom I don't know very well.

@ Peter8862:
There is no need to apologize for not wanting to play with another man! :-) As I already said in my earlier comments, it is absolutely okay to have personal limits, as long as one doesn't tell others that they are sick, just because their preferences are different.

I think you are right in your assumption that wanting a man to wear shorts and to be tied down in order to feel comfortable enough to consider caning him shows that the thought of direct body contact with another man in a potentially erotic situation makes you feel uncomfortable. I suppose there is a bit more to it than that, though. Because otherwise you could, for example, also have said: “I want him to bend over and be completely clothed.” My assumption is that, even though we have different preferences and limits when playing with different people, there are some elements that we enjoy, regardless of the people who are involved in a scene. In your case that might be benches, restraints and certain clothes.

@ Donpascual:
What strikes my mind is that even societies in which men have more physical contact, for example ritual hugs and kisses, don't seem to be any more open concerning potentially erotic contact between men. I don't know what to make out of that, though...

There was another question that came to my mind as well: We only talked about heterosexual men and women so far. I wonder whether there is a difference between homosexual men and women as well? Is either group more open for spanking play with people of the opposite gender? I don't think that we have enough homosexual readers to find any answer to that question, but it would be very interesting to see, whether this is just a “straight men” thing or whether there is a general difference between men and women when it comes to physical contact with the gender one isn't sexually interested in. My best guess is that the problems which many straight men have with situations that could potentially be gay are bigger than those that occur in any other constellation. That's just what my gut feeling tells me, though.

Anyway, I think it was a very interesting discussion, and I have to admit that I was quite surprised to see how many straight men seem to be able to find at least a mixed gender scene that includes M/M interesting or even potentially erotic!

Anonymous said...

I'm jumping into this a bit late but just rediscovered your blog.

I've been into spanking all my life and began meeting women over 20 years ago at the age of 21. After topping for a few years I began bottoming.I loved it, but found it hard to find tops. I had a lesbian friend who loved spankings from me but wouldn't have wanted any other intimate contact and it was her ease with me that made me think about being topped by a male.

After my long fruitless searches looking for a female top (at least one who didn't charge for the service) I was amazed at how many male tops were out there. I was very specific about wanting a "straight" spanking and discovered quite a few men out there liked to dish it out in just that manner and I soon got my first "Dad" spanking.

I love pics and clips of M/m play if it is not overtly sexual. It's funny; I don't particularly feel anything seeing a pic of a naked man, but put a young man over the knee of a mature man with his bottom bared and I find that exciting. I still love spanking play with women, but a good Dad spanking once in a while does the trick for me too!


Donpascual said...

Thank you for commenting, it's never too late :-).
You are the first commenter, to accept the idea of getting spanked or topping a man in a non-sexual setting. Obviously, you feel comfortable with another man - excluding sexual context.
By chance, we have restarted this discussion in, the web page of Pandora Blake who makes a very admirable attempt to present every kind of play, including non-gay M/M.
There is a blog thread on this site with the title "principled porn". I got involved and the thread developed into the M/M corner. The final touch was a comment of Jimmy Holloway, one of Pandora's male models (bottom and top).
You may want to read it. It confirms your attitude towards M/M play.

Kaelah said...

@ Phil:
Welcome and thanks a lot for sharing your experiences! It is great to hear about a man who doesn't seem to have the same fears about body contact with other men which most of the commenters described. I guess if more men weren't so scared about that, (heterosexual) guys could just make as many fun spanking experiences among men as (heterosexual) women do with other women.

@ Donpascual:
Thanks for mentioning the discussion on Pandora's blog. It's very interesting to read about Jimmy's point of view.

Donpascual said...

There has been an interesting continuation of this thread here in Pandora's Blog on I mentioned that already.
Today, I found two new comments on the chaperone aspect in M/M play: one of Mike Stryker, new bottom on Pandora's site, and one from Pandora herself.
Chaperone seems to be the correct interpretation of the phenomenon. I am waiting for Pandora's permission to paste them into this thread here.

Donpascual said...

Here are the two comments from Pandora's Blog in

Posted by Mike Stryker at 23:21 on 26 Apr 2012
I'm not sure how much I can comment on M/M spanking, but I'm definitely aware of the 'chaperone' phenomenon, known more crudely as "it's not gay if it's in a three-way." I've been involved in more than a couple of kinky scenes where there has been M/M play but with the occasional nod to the female chaperone or even a reaching out and touching to make sure that male-female contact is still being made in some way. I think it can be a positive in the sense of 'allowing' M/M contact to take place in a way that may be more comfortable for participants who want to have some fun play with another man but aren't sure of their own comfort levels, but at the same time I worry that it is used to reassure people that 'it's all still straight, really' (or, again, to borrow a more common term "no homo"), which seems... unnecessary, at least.

Posted by Pandora Blake at 08:45 on 27 Apr 2012
That's a good way of putting it. It's something I've had requested by lots of men in M/M video too: put a woman in there, watching, and suddenly they feel more comfortable. I think you're spot on in describing the anxiety this arises from.

I think it's possible for someone to not eroticise male bodies, or want to play directly with a man, but to find the fantasy of M/M play hot in a non-consent sort of way. A female present gives them a focus for their sexual energy, a more straightforward way of eroticising the scene. In my experience it's particularly common with historical/school/judicial fantasies, because the fantasy is based in authentic historical reality and having a female administer the punishment would be unrealistic, and they want realism, but the M/M reality is an inconvenience for the heterosexual fantasist. Inserting a woman into the fantasy takes the pressure off.

Personally I think there's nothing wrong with fantasising about a situation with someone you don't fancy, or a non-consent fantasy which would be unsexy in reality. It's perfectly possible to be turned on by the idea of being forced to do something that doesn't turn you on, and having that fantasy doesn't suddenly mean it WOULD turn you on!

It's a side-effect of the labelling fallacy, I think: a lot of people seem to think that fantasising about something puts you into a certain category forever, when actually, sexual desire is far more amorphous and random and fluid than that.

Spankingfreunde.DE said...

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Kaelah said...

@ Donpascual:
Thanks for chross-posting the interesting comments from Pandora's thread. I can understand why the concept of a female chaperone can be interpreted as a signal of fear of gay activities but it is also easy for me to see why the presence of a woman simply makes an M/M scene more attractive for heterosexual men.

@ Spankingfreunde / Rainer:
It is great that there is so much variety at your play events and that every gender constellation is welcome!